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	<title>Comments on: DV Generational Loss in Avid</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dylanreeve.com/videotv/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dylanreeve.com/videotv/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html</link>
	<description>Dylan Reeve, on the internet!</description>
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		<title>By: Dylan</title>
		<link>http://dylanreeve.com/videotv/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html/comment-page-1#comment-618</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 01:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dylan.wibble.net/videotv/avid/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html#comment-618</guid>
		<description>Indeed DV is a lossy format (indeed, see my much older post &lt;a href=&quot;http://dylanreeve.com/videotv/avid/2005/avid-resolutions-compared.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Avid Resolutions Compared&lt;/a&gt;) but once that compression has been committed to tape there has been many discussions online about how best to deal with it - as DV captured with Firewire, as DV captured Analogue or SDI, as 1:1 captured with Firewire, or 1:1 with Analogue or SDI. 

In my opinion, as was the point of this post, the best option is to acquire as DV25, via Firewire. The original DV material can be moved to and from DV tape via firewire infinitely without any further loss of quality - generationless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed DV is a lossy format (indeed, see my much older post <a href="http://dylanreeve.com/videotv/avid/2005/avid-resolutions-compared.html"  rel="nofollow">Avid Resolutions Compared</a>) but once that compression has been committed to tape there has been many discussions online about how best to deal with it &#8211; as DV captured with Firewire, as DV captured Analogue or SDI, as 1:1 captured with Firewire, or 1:1 with Analogue or SDI. </p>
<p>In my opinion, as was the point of this post, the best option is to acquire as DV25, via Firewire. The original DV material can be moved to and from DV tape via firewire infinitely without any further loss of quality &#8211; generationless.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrix</title>
		<link>http://dylanreeve.com/videotv/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html/comment-page-1#comment-617</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 00:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dylan.wibble.net/videotv/avid/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html#comment-617</guid>
		<description>Hey Dylan, same here, very familiar, from an engineering perspective.  Final word for me on this issue is the fact that when footage is recorded to DVCAM, compression is native to the tape format, no way around it, native to the format, whatever resolution you’re talking about recording to the tape, including 1:1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Dylan, same here, very familiar, from an engineering perspective.  Final word for me on this issue is the fact that when footage is recorded to DVCAM, compression is native to the tape format, no way around it, native to the format, whatever resolution you’re talking about recording to the tape, including 1:1.</p>
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		<title>By: Dylan</title>
		<link>http://dylanreeve.com/videotv/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html/comment-page-1#comment-616</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 06:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dylan.wibble.net/videotv/avid/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html#comment-616</guid>
		<description>Patrix, I am very familiar with DV compression.

The point is that compression, if you&#039;re shooting on a DV25 format, is applied at the time of acquisition. What is stored on the tape is a 25Mbit/s stream of compressed video data.

In &#039;capturing&#039; the DV25 footage into an Avid DV25 resolution via Firewire you are transferring that video essence (the 25Mbit/s compressed video data) as a data stream onto the computer, where the data is wrapped in an MXF or OMFI wrapper. It is lossless - the data is transferred from the tape (or disc, or drive) without change. No further compression or recompression occurs.

Whereas, if you were to capture the same DV25 footage using a baseband connection (SDI or Analogue Component) then that video would be decompressed from the player, and then recompressed (the same 25Mbit/s Intraframe DCT compression) by the Avid software. For a DCT compression this can be quite damaging, especially if any translational shifts occur, in which case the DCT blocks (between acquisition compression, and subsequent NLE compression) become misaligned will significantly degrade the image.

If capturing via Firewire in Avid, from a DV25 source, then a matched DV25 resolution is fine, and infact lossless (if possible all subsequent rendering should be at a greater resolution, such as 1:1). However if the capture is taking place via SDI or Analogue, then it&#039;s vital that a greater resolution be used (1:1 ideally).

However if you capture DV 25 footage</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrix, I am very familiar with DV compression.</p>
<p>The point is that compression, if you&#8217;re shooting on a DV25 format, is applied at the time of acquisition. What is stored on the tape is a 25Mbit/s stream of compressed video data.</p>
<p>In &#8216;capturing&#8217; the DV25 footage into an Avid DV25 resolution via Firewire you are transferring that video essence (the 25Mbit/s compressed video data) as a data stream onto the computer, where the data is wrapped in an MXF or OMFI wrapper. It is lossless &#8211; the data is transferred from the tape (or disc, or drive) without change. No further compression or recompression occurs.</p>
<p>Whereas, if you were to capture the same DV25 footage using a baseband connection (SDI or Analogue Component) then that video would be decompressed from the player, and then recompressed (the same 25Mbit/s Intraframe DCT compression) by the Avid software. For a DCT compression this can be quite damaging, especially if any translational shifts occur, in which case the DCT blocks (between acquisition compression, and subsequent NLE compression) become misaligned will significantly degrade the image.</p>
<p>If capturing via Firewire in Avid, from a DV25 source, then a matched DV25 resolution is fine, and infact lossless (if possible all subsequent rendering should be at a greater resolution, such as 1:1). However if the capture is taking place via SDI or Analogue, then it&#8217;s vital that a greater resolution be used (1:1 ideally).</p>
<p>However if you capture DV 25 footage</p>
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		<title>By: Patrix</title>
		<link>http://dylanreeve.com/videotv/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html/comment-page-1#comment-615</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dylan.wibble.net/videotv/avid/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html#comment-615</guid>
		<description>www.sony.ca/dvcam/pdfs/dvcam%20format%20overview.pdf

…or you can do a Google search for DVCAM format overview to read SONY’s white paper document on the DVCAM format.  Once you have the document, see the Video Signal Processing section, page 6.  It describes the sampling, blocking shuffling, etc. processes of how the bits are stored on the tape.

It doesn’t matter how the bits of data are recorded to the format, the compression process is applied during the ‘Sampling’ (“The sampled video data is reduced by a factor of 5:1 using bit rate reduction…”) and ‘Shuffling’ (“In the DVCAM/DV formats, the compression process is applied over five macro blocks gathered from five different super blocks.”) phases of the signal processing, hence the 5:1 compression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.sony.ca/dvcam/pdfs/dvcam%20format%20overview.pdf" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/www.sony.ca');" rel="nofollow">http://www.sony.ca/dvcam/pdfs/dvcam%20format%20overview.pdf</a></p>
<p>…or you can do a Google search for DVCAM format overview to read SONY’s white paper document on the DVCAM format.  Once you have the document, see the Video Signal Processing section, page 6.  It describes the sampling, blocking shuffling, etc. processes of how the bits are stored on the tape.</p>
<p>It doesn’t matter how the bits of data are recorded to the format, the compression process is applied during the ‘Sampling’ (“The sampled video data is reduced by a factor of 5:1 using bit rate reduction…”) and ‘Shuffling’ (“In the DVCAM/DV formats, the compression process is applied over five macro blocks gathered from five different super blocks.”) phases of the signal processing, hence the 5:1 compression.</p>
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		<title>By: Dylan</title>
		<link>http://dylanreeve.com/videotv/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html/comment-page-1#comment-614</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 06:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dylan.wibble.net/videotv/avid/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html#comment-614</guid>
		<description>Capturing any DV25 footage (DVCAM, Standard DV or DVCPRO) into Avid, via Firewire in the correct format (DV25 420 for PAL DVCAM for example) introduces no loss at all. That is because a Firewire transfer is not moving video as such, but digital data. It moves the DV data from the tape to the harddrive without changing it.

However if you take that same tape and capture it by SDI then you&#039;re capturing a baseband video stream and recompressing it. The worstcase scenario basically being capturing DV25 footage into a DV25 Avid resolution using any method other than Firewire. In that scenario the DV25 compressed footage is being unpacked into a baseband video stream, sampled by the Avid and recompressed back to DV25. This will create significant loss that will become visible generational loss quite quickly. 

If the source footage is DV25, and is captured (transferred really) via Firewire into DV25 Avid media, edited and output again via Firewire to a DV25 deck there is absolutely no generation loss. The data written to the tape is exactly, bit for bit, the same as what was &#039;captured&#039;. However as soon as the footage as any translational effect (scaling, resizing) applied, or has to undergo and pixel manipulation (colour correct, transitions) then new media is created and will be compressed with a DV compression at some point (assuming it&#039;s going back to a DV tape) - at which point change has occurred and generational compression becomes an issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Capturing any DV25 footage (DVCAM, Standard DV or DVCPRO) into Avid, via Firewire in the correct format (DV25 420 for PAL DVCAM for example) introduces no loss at all. That is because a Firewire transfer is not moving video as such, but digital data. It moves the DV data from the tape to the harddrive without changing it.</p>
<p>However if you take that same tape and capture it by SDI then you&#8217;re capturing a baseband video stream and recompressing it. The worstcase scenario basically being capturing DV25 footage into a DV25 Avid resolution using any method other than Firewire. In that scenario the DV25 compressed footage is being unpacked into a baseband video stream, sampled by the Avid and recompressed back to DV25. This will create significant loss that will become visible generational loss quite quickly. </p>
<p>If the source footage is DV25, and is captured (transferred really) via Firewire into DV25 Avid media, edited and output again via Firewire to a DV25 deck there is absolutely no generation loss. The data written to the tape is exactly, bit for bit, the same as what was &#8216;captured&#8217;. However as soon as the footage as any translational effect (scaling, resizing) applied, or has to undergo and pixel manipulation (colour correct, transitions) then new media is created and will be compressed with a DV compression at some point (assuming it&#8217;s going back to a DV tape) &#8211; at which point change has occurred and generational compression becomes an issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrix</title>
		<link>http://dylanreeve.com/videotv/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html/comment-page-1#comment-613</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 23:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dylan.wibble.net/videotv/avid/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html#comment-613</guid>
		<description>Came across this blog thru the AVID forums.

Generation loss (however slight) occurs when you output from the AVID to DVCAM via any conduit.  DVCAM has a native compression ratio of 5:1.  When recording to DVCAM the sampled video data is reduced by a factor of 5:1 using bit rate reduction.  This loss has nothing to do with AVID output, rather the media you choose to output to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Came across this blog thru the AVID forums.</p>
<p>Generation loss (however slight) occurs when you output from the AVID to DVCAM via any conduit.  DVCAM has a native compression ratio of 5:1.  When recording to DVCAM the sampled video data is reduced by a factor of 5:1 using bit rate reduction.  This loss has nothing to do with AVID output, rather the media you choose to output to.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Dwen</title>
		<link>http://dylanreeve.com/videotv/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html/comment-page-1#comment-406</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Dwen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dylan.wibble.net/videotv/avid/2007/dv-generational-loss-in-avid.html#comment-406</guid>
		<description>You must have been bored.  But good to know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You must have been bored.  But good to know.</p>
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